I realize I am not creative, entertaining, or humorous. I enjoy reading this blog because Jon is all of those things. But since he asked me to post from time to time, you have to scroll over my posts to read what he has to say. Or, if you would like to get lost in the ramblings of my mind, or perhaps fancy the challenge of trying to unravel my tangled thoughts; you are welcome to read my posts also.
Okay... I thought it would be fairly easy to share my thoughts on the 3 excerpts I posted from the Lakeview Bible Church's Statement of Doctrine. Turns out it is rather overwhelming. There is so much background that goes into it, I’m not sure if this is the best format for expounding. I will try to share my thoughts in an abbreviated fashion. I will be happy to elaborate if anyone is interested. I will start with baptism.
- F. One Baptism
We believe that the Holy Spirit places all believers today
into the Body of Christ by one spiritual baptism. - This divine baptism takes place at salvation and identifies every believer with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection.
- Since this one baptism promotes the unity of the Spirit,
Lakeview Bible Church does not practice water baptism,
resting in the total sufficiency of the finish work of Jesus Christ
for a complete and blameless standing before God.
(Romans 6:3-4; 1 Corinthians 1:17-18 and 12:12-13; Ephesians 4:3-6; Colossians 2:9-12)
I think I understand why Lakeview Bible Church says they do not practice water baptism today. If you have not bothered to look up the verses listed, I will share them here. The baptism that Paul taught was not a water baptism, it was a spiritual one.
Romans 6
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
1 Corinthians 12
12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Ephesians 4
3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Colossians 2
9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
1 Corinthians 1
17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Now this last verse raises an interesting question. If Paul wasn’t sent to baptize, why did Jesus say:
Matthew 28
18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.
I’m sure we ignore the truth of what Paul is saying by minimizing it, since it doesn’t fit what we’ve been taught. (“He must have just meant that baptizing wasn’t his MAIN goal, since baptism doesn’t really SAVE you.”)
Except that Jesus really said:
Mark 16
15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
And Peter, remembering what Christ had taught him said:
Acts 2
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
For now, I suppose I can just say that Paul is preaching a different gospel than Jesus was commanding his disciples to preach at the end of the gospels. Paul was given a different message and a different audience.
Paul said:
Galatians 2
7But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
The verses above, and the verses below should give you an idea of what the gospel of the circumcision was about (gospel to the Jews).
Matthew 10
5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. 22And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. 23But… …Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. 32Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 4
23And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom,
Matthew 24
3But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
And this should tell you what Paul’s gospel was about:
1 Corinthians 15
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Water baptism belongs to a different gospel than the one Paul taught (and the one through which I was saved.)
Since I’m trying to keep my post here fairly condensed, here’s a good read if you want a thorough breakdown according to a mid-Acts dispensational view: http://www.dispensationalberean.com/teaching/webb/water.html
It is 8 pages long, so you will have to click through the multiple pages for the whole idea.
22 comments:
Hello,
I hope you don't mind answering a couple of questions I am asking all believers everywhere;
Do you believe that God sent His only Son Jesus Christ to start a new religion called Christianity?
And if yes. Where is the text in the bible that supports the popular Christian belief that God sent His only Son Jesus Christ to start a new religion called Christianity?
My answer to the question would be, "No. Jesus was not sent to Earth to start a new religion called Christianity."
Jesus's ministry on Earth was to present Himself to the Jews as their Messiah. God's hidden plan was to allow Jesus to die on the cross as a perfect sacrifice -- an atonement for the sins of all who would accept His death as payment for their own sins.
After Jesus's death and resurrection, those Jews who still believed that Jesus was their Messiah and that He would return to establish His kingdom became known as Christians. It was not a new religion, it was the understanding that the promises to the Jews were fulfilled in Jesus Christ who was returning to set up the Kingdom prophesied about in the Jewish Bible, and taught by Jesus during His ministry on Earth.
Paul, having God's hidden plan revealed to him concerning Jesus's death as the payment for man's sins and hidden promises concerning their salvation from Hell and future in Heaven; available prior to Christ's return to establish His Earthly kingdom; at the same time was preaching this new gospel to the Gentiles. Because of God's plan that both Jew and Gentile would become part of the same body (formerly a mystery -- which Paul spends a great deal of time explaining in the books of Romans and Ephesians) the churches outside of Jerusalem included both Jewish and Gentile believers. This led to believers of both gospels eventually becoming known as Christians.
Eventually the gospel of the kingdom (Jesus's gospel) was phased out (with the end of His disciples' ministry), to be re-established at the end of this present age.
So, to answer the question I think you're asking... Paul revealed God's plan for the salvation of Gentiles which we know of as "Christianity." It is not really a new religion, it is a faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ -- allowing any who believe to be saved from Hell and become a part of God's family.
I just want to thank the Father that he was willing to send his Son to this earthly ministry.
His reason for sending his Son?
John 3:16 (Probably the most quoted verse in the Bible)
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotton Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jew or Gentile, we can all benefit from the obedience of Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 2:15-16 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby...
That's interesting. John 3:16 doesn't mention anything about Jesus dying for our sins.
I'm not so sure that verse 14 (14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:) is talking about His death instead of ascending into Heaven (verse 13).
HMMMMMM...
Nice quote on Eph. 2:15-16. :P
I am impressed with your succinct answer(s) to M.A.C.'s question. Many believers would have taken the opportunity to do the round-a-bout thing and use emotional pleas to convince.
Aside from that . . .
I read all eight pages of the link you had on Water Baptism:
A Mid-Acts Dispensational Viewpoint. This is so interesting to me. It's a viewpoint I'd never heard before - not surprising, since I go to an A/G church, I guess. My question is this, since it seems you are not for water baptism would you challenge a pastor or church body (Baptist or not) that do/does believe in water baptism?
And now I am off to mull over this new viewpoint and try to reconcile it with what I've always been taught and subsequently believed.
Brother,
My understanding is that a religion is a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: i.e. the Christian religion.
It is also my understanding that sectarianism is sin. So if it is sin. Then the practice of denominational divergence within the Christian religion is in danger of judgment at the judgment seat of Christ.
Consider; Matthew 7
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Sounds like Jesus is talking about church folk here. i.e. Christian denominations.
I'm all for ending denominations. What is your plan for getting everyone involved in a form of Christianity to conform to a single (assumingly correct) set of beliefs?
Who decides which set of beliefs are correct?
My understanding is that the same task was undertaken by Constantine. Didn't he meld all beliefs into one false "Christianity" that led to centuries of atrocities committed by the "church"?
Not to worry. Christ will return to Earth to set up His kingdom, and the whole world will be unified in one religion.
Won't be what you know of as Christianity, but no one still around will be complaining. :)
As you said: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Let me add another question, and a verse in challenge.
Is it better to be at odds with man (over religious beliefs) and in line with God, or better to be in line with man, and at odds with God?
Galatians 1:
6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. 11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Jubilee,
Let's look at baptism from a baptist perspective in order for me to answer your question.
1. Baptism is only for believers.
2. Baptism is only by immersion.
3. Baptism is symbolic.
4. Christ commanded baptism.
I cannot argue any of those points. Previously, when joining a Baptist church, I've been asked these questions to confirm my membership. I've never had a problem answering these honestly in a way that the pastor/church could be comfortable with, even though I've questioned it going back to when I was a teenager.
1. Baptism is only for believers: as taught by Jesus, absolutely. It was a part of their salvation.
2. Baptism is only by immersion: Yes, I agree. They baptized by immersing.
3. Baptism is symbolic: Yep, the way it's used today it is strictly symbolic. I was baptized as a visual testimony to committing my life to Christ.
4. Christ commanded baptism: Yes, He did. (It's true, though I was not his intended audience.)
Is it worth making an issue of now in a church that I go to? Not really. The bigger issue is the pastor/church not understanding the difference between Jesus's gospel (and teaching/commands) and Paul's gospel. Once that is resolved, understanding baptism (eventually) follows on its own.
Brother,
Here is my proposal to denominations repent before its to late. Give up your tax status and make your business about Christ.
The business of denominations is retrogressive on a massive scale. More massive then what Paul was dealing with, with the Galatians.
With such a massive retrogression it leaves a lot of confusion for those being added to the faith of Jesus Christ. My intentions are solicitous to denominations and I would like to see no one that calls on Christ is condemned because of denominational divergence. It's my mission.
Brother,
You said that "John 3:16 doesn't mention Jesus dying for our sins."
I agree. That however was not the point of my comment.
The fact of the matter is that by God sending his Son (because he loved the world) we are all able to reap the benefit. That is the reason that I used the two verses that I did.
I know that you don't want to reject the truth of that!
Jon,
Sorry. You misunderstood my reason for pointing that out. I wasn't disagreeing with you.
I just happened to notice (for the first time) that John 3:16 isn't the verse that I was taught it was while growing up. It was an "Ahah!" moment.
I was always taught that it meant that God loved the world so much that He sent His Son to die on the cross for our sins. Although hindsight tells us that such an inference could be made, context tells us that He was the fulfillment of the Kingdom promises -- by which all men will be blessed.
Now that surprises me. The "Ahah" moment.
Though I love John 3:16, God sent His Son "that the world through him might be saved" (verse 17)
What would have happened if the Jews hadn't rejected him? Would the world have still been saved?
15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
According to the passage, the world being saved is referring to whosoever believes in Him. That includes Jews (by birth) and Gentiles (by proselytism) under the Kingdom gospel.
Jesus, however, does have the authority to speak outside of the realm of His immediate dispensation though. He does hint at God's plan outside of His active dispensation at various times. This time, however, He seems to actually be teaching to His current audience (Nicodemus) for his immediate benefit. So I would stick to His literal in-context meaning when making interpretation.
I don't believe that I can delineate as clearly as that. God is all knowing. Couldn't he have intended that Jesus was the way for Jew and Gentile? Both dispensations?
When God sent his Son to earth, he didn't give him halfway.
Philippians 2:6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Clearly God offered the Kingdom through his Son. Clearly God knew they wouldn't accept. Clearly God knew he would offer salvation to us. Clearly God knows who will accept.
Luke 19:14 "But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom..."
Like so much of the Bible, God wrote with double-entendre. Don't discount that God intended a double meaning here as in so much of His Word.
Also--it's "ah-ha" moment. ;)
"ha-ha" thanks :)
I didn't mean to totally discount the double meaning here. Here is what I said about it 4 comments back: "Although hindsight tells us that such an inference could be made, context tells us that He was the fulfillment of the Kingdom promises -- by which all men will be blessed."
Jon challenged me on whether or not that was a strong enough interpretation considering the passage speaks about the whole world being saved. It's a good question... ultimately, that will be fulfilled during his Kingdom reign, but more immediately possible during this current age of Grace because of His death on the cross.
But let me ask you this: Do you think teaching the secondary interpretation of this particular verse (and not the contextual meaning) has helped, or hindered believers' ability to "rightly divide the Word Of Truth"?
Also, I am still open to the verse being strictly about Jesus dying on the cross for sins. He does teach that His blood was shed for the remission of sins. Just show me what exactly this passage is referring to. :)
Numbers 21:7Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. 8And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 9And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned:
The passage is referring to both. If the Jews had looked upon Christ for their salvation, in comes the kingdom. They didn't.
If the Gentiles look upon Christ for their salvation, they will live.
The passage is referring to the audience. Which audience are you?
John 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come. 22Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come. 23And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 25Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. 26I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. 27They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. 28Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Do you see it in verse 28?
Additionally...
Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Which passage is Jesus referring to?
If you must know where I fall on this, I believe that he is speaking of the cross and his...
Genesis 40:20And it came to pass the third day, which was Pharaoh’s birthday, that he made a feast unto all his servants: and he lifted up the head of the chief butler and of the chief baker among his servants. 21And he restored the chief butler unto his butlership again; and he gave the cup into Pharaoh’s hand:
Job 31: 29If I rejoiced at the destruction of him that hated me, or lifted up myself when evil found him:
Psalm 27: 6 And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the LORD
Isaiah 2: 12For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low
Isaiah 6: 1In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple
Jeremiah 52:31And it came to pass in the seven and thirtieth year of the captivity of Jehoiachin king of Judah, in the twelfth month, in the five and twentieth day of the month, that Evilmerodach king of Babylon in the first year of his reign lifted up the head of Jehoiachin king of Judah, and brought him forth out of prison, 32And spake kindly unto him, and set his throne above the throne of the kings that were with him in Babylon,
Okay, so... anytime someone is "lifted up" in scripture, it is talking about them being exalted.
Except for this verse that you want to use:
John 12:32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33This he said, signifying what death he should die. 34The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?
John says (apparently in retrospect) that Jesus was talking of His death. But even the people listening thought He was talking about being exalted. That's why they asked who the Son of man was, since they knew it was to be Christ who lived forever.
So yeah, it means both. That which was revealed, and that which was a mystery. Thanks for clearing that up! :)
YourBrother,
That last comment is worthy of it's own post (especially when it comes from a dispensationalist). Who is going to read down 21 comments on an unrelated post to find the information that you just shared? :)
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