The following is an excerpt from a message (not mine):
{That presupposition is that for humans to be morally accountable agents they must have the ultimate power of self-determination at all those points where they are found blameworthy or praiseworthy.
That presupposition pushes people away from believing that God has the right and power in righteousness and wisdom to infallibly plan the death of his Son through the sinful acts of morally accountable men. But the Bible teaches that he did. There is no atonement and no gospel without God-planned sins against the Son of God. He died at the hands of sinful men by God’s design. That is an essential part of the gospel. “He died for our sins according to the scriptures.”}
This question is short and sweet. Does God, or did He when He sent His Son, plan sin or does He work His plan regardless of our sin? This is a critical point in ones theology! What Biblical evidence can you bring to support your position?
Respectfully urging you to weigh in, Jon
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This is not what I thought you would 'bite' on. Yes this is critical because this determines how we respond to such things as suffering and how we provide counsel to lifes head shaking events.
First of all a personal testimony. I have consistently wrestled with the problem of evil and suffering in the world as I have been intimately acquainted with it and see it on a daily basis. As I aligned my thinking to conform to the truth of scripture I was lead back to Genesis chapter 3, the point of original sin. Could God have stopped Adam from sinning? Yes indeed, but he didn't and now we see unspeakable suffering present in the world. Then we come to the crucifiction and we see Christ as the Lord crucifying himself. Allowing the worst act of sin to take place. Consider Heb. 2:9-10
I have been forced to look for God's purpose in evil/pain. I believe that there is an answer in God's all satisfying soverign grace.
If allowing sin was not the purpose of God then what is ultimate? The answer is either man's will which is ultimately "self-determining" and can even surprise God, or the will of an evil spirit which is also ultimately "self-determining" (i.e. the devil). I maintain that God is ultimate over all things even sin and evil he purposes and disposes all things (Job 2:10; Amos 3:6; Rom 8:28; Eph 1:11) His wisdom is supreme and he has a plan (Rom 11:33-36; Jer. 29:11; 32:40). By God being ultimate over all things, even sin, it enables the recipients of His grace to know Him better than they could have in their originally created condition,
I use to think that the reason behind all evil in the world is found in Satan, not God but I couldn't account for pain and suffering. Now I can. Not only is God not frustrated, I'm not frustrated anymore.
Michael
Michael, I want to make sure that I understand you correctly. Are you saying that in order for God to be "ultimate" He has to orchestrate or plan sin?
Sin is disobedience to God. If God plans it, then sin is obedience. How do you reconcile that?
Jon
God is ultimate in that God decrees all things, even all sins as Ephesians 1:11, "He works all things after the counsel of His will." He is not the author of sin as you may be thinking that I am saying. Willing that sin exist in the world is not the same as sinning. To quote Jonathan Edwards, "God does not commit sin in willing that there be sin. God has established a world in which sin will indeed necessarily come to pass by God's permission, but not by his positive agency." He goes on to say "sin is not the fruit of any positive agency or influence of the most High, but on the contrary, arises from the withholding of his action and energy, and under certain circumstances, necessarily follows on the want of his influence."
There is much more to this than can be addressed here but read this, "Is God Less Glorious Because He Ordained that Evil Be?" by J.P. at www.desiringgod.
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/ConferenceMessages/ByDate/1476_Is_God_Less_Glorious_Because_He_Ordained_that_Evil_Be/
Again this settled a lot of frustration and hand wringing for me and I believe it meshes with scripture. Many in evangelical and fundamental churches think this makes less of God. I think it makes him more glorious.
Michael
Michael, I believe that we are closer in thinking than it appears.
You stated in quoting another, " God has established a world in which sin will indeed necessarily come to pass by God's permission, but not by his positive agency." He goes on to say "sin is not the fruit of any positive agency or influence of the most High, but on the contrary, arises from the withholding of his action and energy, and under certain circumstances, necessarily follows on the want of his influence."
I agree that God is omnipotent and all sin occurs with His permission! I do not agree with the statement of the Pastor in my post who said "There is no atonement and no gospel without God-planned sins against the Son of God."
I believe it is one thing to say that God is sovereign and allows sin, He even accomplishes His plan through the sinful acts of men, but it is quite another thing to say that God plans (or causes) man to sin so that His will be accomplished. This idea is opposed to the very nature of God. James says that God cannot be tempted by sin, neither tempteth He any man.
God says he hardened pharaoh's heart
Exodus 7:13
God says he creates evil.
Isaiah 45:7
We know that God created all things. Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it."
Creating evil and causing evil are not the same thing. I believe that man has a choice as he operates under the sovereignty of God. We seek the Lord's will for our life.
Exodus 7:13 "And he hardened Pharaoh’s heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said."
These verses where the Lord hardens ones heart have always been interesting to me. The thing that I am not willing (at least at this point) to concede is that this therefore was sin. I believe that the Lord caused a hard heart so that Israel was not released at this time, does that make Pharoahs actions sin?
You are erring in your presuppositions. You are defining sin outside of God, whereas sin is defined BY God (passively.)
By making this critical error, you are stumbling into the belief that there are certain things that would not be "right" (possible?) for God.
Although I'd be happy to take this through its conclusion, I think it'd be better if I allowed you to do that.
Feel free to goad me for more if necessary.
I figured I'd better follow up with references or you'd possibly dismiss it, thinking you don't need to follow rationalization when you have scripture.
I John 3:4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (sin defined by God actively -as creator of the law)
Romans 3:23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
(sin defined by God passively -- coming short of His glory)
Psalms 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. (Sin defined passively - it is an act committed AGAINST God)
Again, I think that you are proving my point when you think that you are supporting your own. This leads me to believe that we are interpreting the paragraph that I included in my post differently.
I want to make it clear that I believe that God cannot sin. James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
God cannot sin because everything that God does is just and right for Him to do. After all, He is God, and yes brother; He defines sin.
If everything that God does is right, and not sin, am I limiting God when I say that He cannot sin? If God cannot sin, can he hire sin to be done and not be responsible?
The purpose of the post was to allow us to discuss whether the Lord directed men to crucify Christ or if he allowed man to crucify Christ.
Am I right in assuming that you (and the author of my quote) believe that He "directed" them to crucify His Son?
As God's plan is all-inclusive and immutable, yes, he "planned" it. (Although I don't really believe that He ever has to determine what will happen and stage it that way. It just happens according to his Will -- which is as eternal and definitive as God himself.)
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